Chinese History and Traditional Values

(The popular interpretation of Confucianism as absolute obedience may not be an impartial one, according to Prof. Kongfah Lee, a historian from Canada. He believes there’re more to it that we should not turn a blind eye to. Prof. Lee has been teaching history classes for over 30 years in North America. So I began by asking him what he tries to convey to his students about China. )

L: What they have achieved in the past, what was the legacy, what has been going on in their minds, and how this people have been living in the society maybe is quite different from the western part of society. Even more important, anything that we can share, the west can share with the east, will be very educative and important to us.

Host: Such as?

L: For example, in the western society we have a very much modernized process. Sometimes very materialistic. Chinese long traditions have provided a lot of things very beneficial for us to learn and emulate. You know. Even we simply use the theory of Darwinism, anything that doesn't fit will disappear. Now for some culture and civilization, lasting for five or six thousand years, then anything can go to the test of time. Certainly we can learn a great deal from them.

Host: Just now you were talking about the west being very materialistic. But China now is a very materialistic society, too. So it becomes very important how China can preserve its legacy and its past heritage to serve its present and future benefits.

L: Very good question. Actually I've been thinking, contemplating this for quite a while, too. A lot of people say China has suffered so much, poor and all the difficulties. We have to put aside the rest, you know, the spiritual, the proper behavior. It cannot become better than the whole society become wonderful, and all the human relations become wonderful, and our more valuable part of history and culture will be able to resurface again.

Host: This is sort of so-called GDP flagship, isn't it?

L: Yeah, this is certainly not true, and I think it's very dangerous. Because I think it's wonderful that certain people make a fortune, become very wealthy, and then a lot of news media in China give them the highest appraisal.

Host: Give them some spotlight.

L: And make them the national hero. But I think maybe it's important to actually go further, to be able to find how they become wealthy, really the way they have been doing. It's the Chinese tradition that we always said the gentlemen always like wealth, but will always make wealth according to the moral rules. This I think is sometimes being omitted. And also the other thing, I think in the western society we do have a lot of people who become very prosperous and successful, but always also try to make a return, to pay back to the society.

Host: The charities.

L: By doing charities, supporting education and all this. I think the news media in China also should try to make an effort to find out these people, very wealthy, but also very concerned not only with fellow compatriots of China, but also people all over the world, and also even talking about education with children. I think certainly parents would like very much to see their children get very high grades. But this is using the only criteria for good son, for good daughter, because you got 100 grade for your mathematics, and the rest, you just don't care. I think this will be very serious, because I think certainly we need quite a lot, how to cooperate with other people, how to appreciate other people, how to really become a useful citizen in the society.

Host: The little emperor's life should not be always about the mark of school, right? But the question is, as you have mentioned, it's important to let the parents, let the school know about the importance of educating the kids with traditional values. But there is some vacuum, even among the parents, even among the teachers, of their awareness of these traditional values, because as you may be aware of the modern Chinese history. So what can we do about this, and how long do you think this period would last?

L: I think I can give you two examples. At least I find this phenomenon we should pay attention to. I have seen a report of a group of school teachers trying to teach their students to be much more independent. And they got all the children together. Over there one father has been chasing his son, maybe eight or nine years old, chasing the son in order to feed the son spoon by spoon like that, and then kept on running. Now that was an activity to train the children to be more independent. Then somebody approached this man and said, "why you have to do that?" And he said, "oh my son is shy in front of so many people. But he is a very good son, because he got 100 grade."

Host: Isn't this ironic?

L: Yeah. I realized when I saw this that maybe now it's not the case of how to teach the children, maybe we need a lot of effort to teach the parents to be parents. Another thing of course I find very important is to teach the students to understand the modern history of China. But I don't know what in China you have been doing. How to make sure that the young people know their history, really go into the education. I had an experience. I went to Dalian a few years ago. Of course I have heard so much about the suffering they have undergone under Russia, under Japan, and all this. Because I don't know the history of Dalian. I said, OK I'm not going to do research and become an expert on this, but I would like to be informed, at least to know something about that.

So I have been going to many book stores, trying to find a book relating to that part of history. You know what happened? I have been going to many book stores and I couldn't find one single book on this topic.

Host: So you came back empty-handed?

L: Empty-handed. Then a dean at the university over there said, " OK, I have one, maybe I'll present to you just as a gift". I felt very happy. It's called “The History of Dalian in Fifty Years”, beginning from 1949.

Host: Still there is nothing before 1949.

L: So I don't know how the children have been educated, trying to know all this. We have been very critical of the Japanese educational policy to change the textbooks and all this about the history, about the Invasion of China.

Host: Especially during the Nanjing Massacre.

L: During the Nanjing Massacre. If this was the case, then our Chinese children have been totally ignorant, never knowing anything about this. I think maybe this is something we should think about.

Host: You bring us a very important question, that is the availability of information, and the access to the history for Chinese children, for them to understand Chinese history. While at the same time, I would like to ask you the question of the teaching methods. Someone has pointed that history classes in China are more about memorizing the significances of certain historical events. While in some of the classes in the western campuses, it's more analysis of the reasons why certain historical events happened. How would you see this?

L: I think certainly that's quite a difference. You know I myself have gone into the same kind of process. I was brought up in Malaysia. I think it's very difficult. Teaching history is not easy. Because for a fact, you have to make it interesting, not dry. If you spoil their appetite, then it's gone forever. The teacher has to use all kinds of ingenuity to create some interest among the students. I think for a Chinese person, what's important is historical facts. You cannot create something that never happened. But I think a lot of happenings are related to their motherland, to their country. And there is a patriotism over there. It's full of emotional involvement. In that case, it cannot be dry any more.

Host: But do you think it's a good thing to be emotional and sentimental about history?

L: But I think it all depends on what material you use. Is it actual historical fact or does it just create an emotional feeling to us? Because if you have seen even the history of other human being being oppressed, going through a lot of hardships, and they really stand up to protect themselves and become successful, then you will be overjoyed. I still find it difficult to think this is not an emotional involvement. You don't have feeling by simplifying all these facts, like a chemical element. This is a human culture, this is a human civilization.

Host: We'll have a lot more debate on this topic off the microphone. Right now let's go to another question. It seems that history is only the history of victors. What is your view on this idea, the relation between history and the victors?

L: Even the Chinese history had been written in this way. Cheng Zhe Wei Wang, Bai Zhe Wei Kou. You win, you become king, and you lose, you become a bandit. Even a notorious person becomes emperor, and upright person unfortunately loses in the war and they become bandit. The point is what is justifiable. You have to admit those victors would really have a chance to determine and control and effect the contemporary period they would be involved in. The loser, is out of the historical stage, you are not there. But I think in a more important sense will be from the long historical process. Some of the losers, they might lose in a certain struggle, but they have legacy that will last forever. They have a lot of lessons for the future people to emulate, to learn and to admire. In that sense, their achievement, their contribution has become very significant, and people will forever remember them. Even if they lose, even they didn't win the struggle, but they have left their legacy, and people will always admire them. So in that case, it's not that you totally lost.

Host: Then how, it was mainly when we are compiling the history, and it's mainly the historians and the intellectuals who are doing that. How would you see the relation between these intellectuals and historians and the ruling government when they come to compiling a history?

L: I have always had a hard time to think about that. I have always had a high admiration for the intellectual, they had a very upright sense of justice. But I have to also admit those intellectual, they were not always able to implement the ideal into what could be very beneficial to their people and culture. But unfortunately they didn't have the chance, and nobody appreciated them. Say for example, Confucius, he tried very hard to implement his policy, his ideas, but he never succeeded. We don't know, had he been successful, that his policy would have been totally accepted. What would have been the outcome of society under his principles.

Host: It's just like what the Chinese modern writer Lu Xun once said, that the world customarily coped with the geniuses by trying first to suppress them, and then when they failed when the society failed, they exhaust them. Maybe that can be the case for Confucius.

L: That is very true. Social relations and that Confucius is one of these tragedies. In this sense it's a failure.

Host: During his life time, he was not recognized by the ones he wanted to serve politically.

L: I think he was very wise to be able to chose to educate the younger generation and they could continue his missions. And that lasted for thousands of years.

Host: Then what is the essence of Confucianism. Is that what the people say about obedience, about self-discipline, about hierarchy, about emphasizing order? Is that what Confucianism is all about, which the authorities want to preach?

L: I think this maybe is the reason why a lot of rulers put so much emphasis on Confucianism. Confucius is benefited mostly by the rulers, from Hanwudi, (an emperor in the Han Dynasty), because this is the best way to guarantee their positions. And they enjoyed the total obedience, unquestioned obedience, and loyalty.

Host: It's a very convenient theory for them?

L: Yeah, that's very true. This is something both in a positive way and a negative way. Positive because the social order is maintained, because you don't feel very much of a problem. Confucius said if you are not in politics, not in power, you don't talk about politics. But this certainly is not acceptable for modern society. I think the feudal society had been going on, and this is a very important characteristic. It all depends on the period progress. Because the changes that are going on, you have to adjust. And Confucianism I think one of the very important essence is for their continued survival, one thing is fidelity to the feudal rulers. Because for the fact we have talked about this. But on the other hand, they also went through a sort of synthesis. We have many other schools of philosophy, like Taoism, Buddhism, and part of their essence has been absorbed into Confucianism. And they made it eventually become the symbol of Chinese civilization. It's not only Confucius' ideas, but it has gone through a process of synthesizing, that absorbed a lot of things become part of this. So you have to think about the human relationship, at the same time, they are also teaching you the doctrine of golden mean, so you don' t go to the extreme. If you don' t go to the extreme, that kind of total obedience and loyalty is also certainly made. That's why it's so different for Japan. They emphasize so much on obedience and loyalty, where as in China, it is still development about the importance of Ren (Individual). When it comes to Yi (One), you even think about the whole country. They said in the country, the people is the most important, country is next, and the ruler is least important.

Now that kind of concept is very complicated. The whole society is very complex. You have certain shortcomings. But if you use these shortcomings, using this to totally ignore the rest of the positive aspects, I think it's not correct. This is complicated for Chinese development. As a society as a whole, I think it has all kinds of positive and negative aspects. And it's up to us to choose as time goes on which fits in. But not totally negate them. You don't totally destroy them, because it will be most unwise and the biggest loss if we are thinking in this way.